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Your words spin a tale
by Israel at 2008-12-30 05:36:15 | Innocent people? Are you innocent? Am I innocent? When they came to Jesus asking him about the innocent people that were killed his response was that none of us is innocent. I think what you want to say is the killing of civilians that have nothing to do with the Hammas and other terrorists. If that what you mean, then I can trully say that off course I condem killing of inocent people, I do not know any believer that condones that.
Do not tell me that all you said was that you wanted people to condem killing of inocent people, that is not what you said. You called my son and my friends' sons, people with blood on their hands. Your statements reveal your heart, and your reference to us as people with blood on our hands is valid for you as well, we all have blood on our hands, the blood of the real innocent Son of God. look in the mirror.
When you say that true unity is based on a proper theology it sounds so great, that is if you would have meant the salvation by grace ONLY through the death of the Son of God, fully human, fully God, on the cross.
But what you really say is something else. What you are actually saying is that our unity is depended on our view of what is happening in Gaza. I quote you: "Will your relationship with the prince of peace make your response different from the Israeli army in Gaza? If not then how will you look me in the eyes next time we meet and shake my hands while the hands of your army are still wet with the blood of my people!?"
I do not support the shading of innocent blood! I do support the actions of our army in Gaza as it tries to stop the murderers of Hammas from Killing our innocent people. They are also the ones that murdered Ranni from the BS, or have you forgot? I do not know of any other army in the world that calls civilians that live in a house where the enamy has placed weapons and tell them to leave the house because they are going to bomb it. The Israeli army does. We do not want to kill civilians and we do not TRY to kill civilians. I am sorry that people that have nothing to do with them get killed. It breaks my heart! But the option of NOT resisting and fighting evil is even worse and IS NOT biblical. If we will not fight evil because people that are not involved may get hurt we will not stop murderers, thives and many other criminals. We will not have police, laws or justice. We will not have life.
If we seek unity on the base of theology that is other then the basics of our faith, we become secterians. Do we not have unity with people that baptize babies? Speak in tounges (or not)? In fact we probably will not have unity even with our wives as they may understand a verse or two a bit different then us.
I do not think you are bold or sharing your heart, I think you are angry, bitter, and hurt. I am really sorry that you are that way and I do ask you to forgive me and any of my people that has hurted you.
May you experience the joy and peace of God!
Israel Harel |
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- Fight Evil with Good, not with evil. by Hanna, at 2008-12-30 07:06:12
Dear Israel:
There is a difference between sinners from a hamartiological point of view and between innocence from an ethical or legal point of view. I think that you are mixing between the two.
Every human being is a sinner by nature but not all us are going to be put in a human prison because we are sinner. Innocence is the absence of the guilt of disloyalty to God's standards. See for example Matt 27: 3, 24 (see also Num 5: 19, 31). The babies of Gaza are sinners by nature but are innocent and don't deserve to be punished with bloodshed.
My dear brother: Yes the Palestinians have blood on their hands and may God have mercy on us. I weep before him for his mercy. We have sinned against God as a nation several times.
But remember that we are not competing who is more sinful than the other. Otherwise, every sermon preached can be rejected saying that the preacher is a sinner. The question at hand is: Is the excessive killing of innocent children in Gaza acceptable to you? It seems that your answer is yes. I am so sad to hear that. Further my heart is broken when I hear you justifying your view from the Bible. No one said that we should not fight evil but remember that we don't fight evil with evil. We fight evil with good. Tell the children of Gaza that the Israeli army killed their brothers and sisters because you are fighting evil. As for me I will tell them that Christ put his life to grant them life. Wars are not the best path for revealing the love of God.
Last, my brother notice that I am always calling you a brother in Christ. I understand that defining our membership in faith is not dependant on marginal doctrinal or ethical issues; nevertheless there are indispensible cognitive and behavioral content to faith. I am sure that such elements distinguish us from heresies. In my letter or responses I have never, not even once, questioned your faith but challenged your perception that is related to Gaza. I never attacked you personally but tried to dialogue with your belief system. On the other hand, because I disagree with you, you think that I am bitter. I want to assure you that I truly love you and I am angry against sin and not against you. I pray that the Lord will bless you and grant you the theological vision that of divine love and complete respect even when we disagree. - You do accuse me wrongly. by Israel Harel, at 2008-12-31 06:53:11
Dear Hanna,
I was contemplating if I should continue this discussion since it causes me much grief.
I will say a couple of things.
1. You did accuse me, my son, my friends and their sons of having blood on our hands. You cannot escape that.
2. I do not agree with killing of people that are not fighters, and great efforts should be made not to. Not fighting is not always the option.
3. You confuse our role as Believrs in the society and neighborhood of not fighting evil with evil, with the role of governments that hold the sword. It is the role of a government to protect its people and if needs to be to do it by force.
4. God is not a pacifist, He is the Lord of Armies (Hosts) and he fight and will fight against satan. The people that aline themselves with satan will recieve his punishment; eternal fire.
5. Unlike you, I do not expect a sinful governement (any) in this world to behave as christians. They are not.
6. As Arab and Jewish believers we have more in common then what seperate us. We have the Mesiah and His redemption. Your insistence on emphesising what seperates us rather then what unites us is very sad and causes a lot of pain to a lot of people.
May God have mercy on us all.
Israel harel
Wake up to spiritual reality
by Jacob at 2008-12-30 05:50:58 | Bro Hanna,
You seem to think you have reached the pinnacle of courage and morality by univerally condemning the killing of innocent children and implying that Israel Harel can't quite match up. Sorry, Hanna, but even Vladimir Putin could say "amen" to your righteous stand.
Certainly war always has awful consequences. Consider all the innocents killed by the Allied bombing of Nazi Germany. But spiritual maturity based on knowing the God of the Bible requires something more--spiritual discernment of spiritual realites operating behind the scenes. If God is grieved over the death of the wicked how much more is He grieved over the innocent! But He has not come down and made war impossible. In fact, the Bible clearly tells us that even war becomes an instrument in God's hand to move men to repentance and accomplish His purposes.
Yes war is terrible. But so are earthquakes. Everyone knows this. It is all the more terrible when innocent children are the victims. And we all weep. But here Hamas has for years been shooting at and traumatizing innocent Israeli children while hiding behind their own and their people's. They have murdered a Palestinian evangelist and driven out the local evangelical witness as much as possible. The people of Gaza are imprisoned and oppressed by them. It is a terrible price to pay but who will set them free? Maybe, in allowing this awful thing to happen, God cares much more about the people of Gaza than you do or are willing to take a stand against unrighteousness for. If you did not want this to happen, perhaps you should have been doing much more to stop what has provoked it--something even Muslim Abbas is willing to identify. The blame here should be squarely on Hamas and all who support them--not on Messianic believers whose sons also may die to set the Gazans free. God's thoughts are not of human origin and condemning the death of innocents does not give a monopoly on knowing His ways or His heart. |
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