• OPINION \ Nov 07, 2007
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    An Online Debate between Christian Zionists and Palestinian Christians
An Online Debate between Christian Zionists and Palestinian Christians Rami - by Jim Schutz at 2007-10-08 14:48:45

Rami Ayyad is truly a man of God who has now entered into a glorious and eternal reward. But we at the ICEJ and many Christians around the world are deeply moved in behalf of his wife and family and all the believers in Gaza. May God comfort them and bind up their wounds. And may this supreme sacrifice result in the salvation of many in the Gaza Strip--more than Rami could have asked or thought!

ICEJ will need to open it's eyes - by OJones at 2007-10-09 10:56:31

I am very concerned with the attitude ICEJ is projecting. It is as though no one in that group is reading the prophets of the OT. How can you call all the atrocities as blessed by the Lord. Wake up ICEJ!!!

OJones, What?? - by Jim at 2007-10-11 08:30:06

What on earth are you talking about? Rami is blessed by the Lord despite the horrible evil done against him, his family and the body of Christ. The doers of that evil face something far more horrible unless they truly repent and turn from darkness unto the one and only Savior.

To Jim - by Safa at 2007-10-08 16:19:45

Doesn't ICEJ stand for the international Christian embassy Jerusalem?

This organization supports Israel unconditionally and as a result Israel takes the liberty to continue to occupy and kill and destroy Palestinians. The outcome is that of Palestinians are desperate and vote for radicals like Hamas and people like Rami are killed.

It is also puzzling that you want Rami's blood to be "a supreme sacrifice result in the salvation of many in the Gaza Strip...".Although this is the desire of our hearts, it is strange coming from ICEJ that refrain from evangelism to the Jews but appear suddenly when there is Christian-Muslim tension like in the Shihab Edoen issue in Nazareth. You don't seem to be friends of the Arab Palestinian Christians all year around but are busy "loving" the Jews.

I apologize that such words should come when we bow our heads in prayer and memory of Rami but the sudden appearance of ICEJ in the Arab Evangelical scene was notable.

To Safa - by Jim at 2007-10-09 12:04:01

I understand something of your feelings and how it "seems" to you. But from my perspective there is nothing really true in what you wrote other than what the letters ICEJ represent. I have regular contact with Arab believers around the country as well as different ministries reaching out to Muslims. If you would like to meet and find out who we really are and whether we serve the living God, I would be happy to oblige you. Meanwhile, we do extend our hearts and prayers to Rami's family and friends.

What a shame - by Khaleel at 2007-10-12 13:31:48

The so called Christian Embassy is more Zionist than many Jews. They justify all the crimes of the Israeli occupation by misusing the Word of God. I challenge you Mr. Jim to answer the following questions:

1. Do you share the plan of salvation with any Jew?

2. Does not the ICEJ celebrate the tabernacle every year, but never Christmas or Easter?

3. Does not the Embassy lobby for Israel in the political arenas?

4. Did not the Embassy stand against the withdrawal from Gaza claiming that it is part of Israel.

5. Does not the Embassy promote a political agenda, and nothing about mission to reach the Jews for Christ?

6. I read lots of the news letters sent out by the embassy and all of them are promoting hatred against the Palestinians?

7. The mission of the church is to preach the Gospel, and not to comfort the State of Israel at the expense of the suffering Palestinians. Does the embassy follow the great commandment of our Lord, or it is a mere political tool to support the evil policies of the State of Israel

To Khaleel - by Jim at 2007-10-16 13:54:19

I think it would be dishonoring to both Rami and the Lord to use this space to respond to your questions. I will mention, however, that I doubt you've ever read any ICEJ newsletters because your questions reflect a very distorted and inaccurate understanding of our ministry. If you would really like to discuss the issues, you can contact me at icej@icej.org. You can also read carefully Romans 11.

What is dishonoring? by Safa at 2007-10-16 21:29:32

I am sure Khaleel will know what to answer to this claim of spiritual superiority, yet I will hereby bring forth what is really dishonoring:

1.Claiming to be Christian when you are really just a Jew lover that worships Israel and puts it above Jesus and the Bible.

2. Calling yourself "Christian Embassy" as if you have exclusive right to Christianity.

3. Like bats that appear in dark hours, you appear to "show sorrow and sympathy" when such solidarity causes friction with Muslims.

4. Being prejudice against Palestinians and supporting Israel despite all anti Christian and anti Jesus activities.

5. Preaching about what is dishonoring from people who hate Christian Arabs is dishonoring and an absurd in itself.

6. Signing and committing not to evangelize Jews.

7. Preffering non believing Jews to believing Arabs.

The Lord bless you anyway, Safa! by Jim at 2007-10-17 09:16:45

Brother, you can stew in your bitterness, distorted accusations and apparent anti-Semitism as much as you want. But is this how the Bible teaches us to advance the Kingdom of God and our understanding of truth? I would have much to say over the issues you raise in a Christ centered discussion but not in this forum, which is to honor his choice servant, Rami, who paid the ultimate sacrifice for God's glory. May his loved ones be comforted and the believers in Gaza strengthened!

Anti Semitism?! by Safa at 2007-10-17 20:03:51

The silliest accusation would be that I am anti Semitic! I am Semitic myself therefore how can I be anti Semitic?

I love the Jews as human being but hate their deeds. Your so called love of Jews is a false one as you see them slaughtered in Har Magedone. You push for a hard line to fasten Jesus' return and then you get rid of them.

True love could hurt and doesn't mean a naive support.

Israel is an oppressive country with major nuclear weapons and they use naive misled Christians like you and claims that they are poor and attacked from every side to gain sympathy and political support so they can continue with there evil plots of oppression of Palestinians. They stole our lands, created a huge problem of refugees and continue to oppress us. Then they consider it too generous and a concession if they are asked to settle for 22% of historic Palestine.

What creates the biggest stumbling stone is that "fellow Evangelicals" use the Bible in a wrong way to justify that evil and our oppression. They make God a small god of narrow perspective and tribes.

The major sin of Evangelicals is what they caused the Palestinians indirectly. Jesus is sad because people believe in Israel more than in Him. Instead of living according to the standards of righteousness and Justice, they applaud to a lie. They applaud to a country that if you as a Jew believe in Jesus you will be thrown out of the country as a non Jew=Christian.

The "Christian Embassy" (what presumptuous false name!) has distanced Arabs and Muslims from Christ and not been a blessing to the Jews either.

Bless you Safa - by Khaleel at 2007-10-19 17:57:35

When I read the writings of the so called "Christian Zionist" I feel sick. These people are full of hatred and still accuse others of it, what a shame. I believe if the Christian Embassy would close its doors, then it will serve the cause of our Lord in a tremendous way. People like Mr. Jim should pack their suit cases and leave. They are here to destroy and not build. We do not need them.

It is time for us Palestinian Christians to start writing and exposing the myth of Israel, which became a sacred cow by these Zionist Christians.

To Khaleel and Safa - by Jim at 2007-10-20 08:24:30

You guys are amazing in your willingness to publicly dish out condemnations of believers you do not know and have, if anything, only superficially investigated. Are you so certain the God of grace and truth agrees with you? Have you given your lives to Him? If so, are you secure enough in Christ to meet face to face in an attitude of biblical humility (Philippians 2)? If there is really hatred manifesting in this discussion, let us see where it is residing.

To Jim - by Khaleel at 2007-10-21 17:52:59

How dare you saying that we superficially investigated. So far I did not read any answer of all the facts we presented. Let me remind you that God is love, and His love includes every body, and not only the Jews. You are committed to support the State of Israel and not to preach the Gospel to the Jews who are lost because they insist to accept Jesus as the promised Messiah. We Palestinian Christians do love the Jews and pray for their salvation, while you are deceiving them and ignoring their future by not sharing the love of God with them. What I mean here is that the best way to show love to anyone is by telling them that Jesus is the only savior of the Jews as well as every one on planet earth.

Meeting face to face -by Khaleel at 2007-10-22 09:21:47

First of all I do not know you in person Mr. Jim. Secondly, When I say something, then you should know what I am talking about. If you read your own answer again, then you will discover that you are playing with words. You wrote: "We are every day a witness in Israel of who Jesus is". This sentence does not mean at all that you are sharing the Gospel with the Jews, and does not mean also that you are telling the Jews that Jesus is the only Savior of the world. I challenge you to confess the truth and say the basic fact that if the so called Christian Embassy preaches the Gospel to the Jews, then the Israeli government will close the embassy and kick you out of the country? Can you say that this is not the case? If you write and say that yes, you do share the plan of salvation to the Jews and not promote a political agenda, then I will tell you my full name and meet you in person. God bless you.

Khaleel - by Jim at 2007-10-22 10:49:29

Our agenda is not political but biblical--the whole Bible, including the irrevocable gifts and calling God gave to the nation of Israel for the purpose of life from the dead for the whole world. Are you so sure you understand this mystery from Rom 11 fully? How it is that God preached the gospel through Abraham long before Jesus came (Gal 3:8)? What does Rom 11:31-33 really mean? The question should not be whether we are preaching the gospel on the streets of Jerusalem in the way you might approve of, but whether we are being obedient to God's calling in the ways He has opened for us, whether or not you understand them. If you want to try to understand, I would be happy to meet with you as I have with many Arab believers. You might even be surprised. But I will not in a forum like this let you put formularized words into my mouth that neither reflect the truths of the situation nor the complexities involved.

Where are you Jim - by Khaleel at 2007-10-23 13:19:58

It is three days now and you did not answer. Well, I know why. The ICEJ does not preach the Gospel to the Jews, and does not tell the Jews that Jesus is the promised Messiah. Every one knows that there is a law in Israel against preaching the Gospel to the Jews. The ICEJ is here only for evil political reason. You must go back home or repent and establish brotherly relations with your Palestinian Christian brothers and sisters in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The mission of the church is to preach the Gospel to every nation on planet earth, and not to justify the policies of the State of Israel.

Time to end this - by Jim at 2007-10-23 16:43:16

You are proving yourself as one who wants to argue your assumed "rightness" rather than to meet in Christ and allow for mutual enlargement. Therefore, I do not intend to respond to your posts anymore. However, for the record, I point out that my last post was submitted less than 2 hours after your previous one. So much for your imaginary 3 days. I also reiterate that by God's grace we are every day a witness in Israel of who Jesus is--the one and only Messiah and Savior of the world. But we are not here to push this in the face of the Jewish people, who need to see the fruit of the true gospel in the Gentiles more than hear about it from a religious tradition ignorant of God's love and plan for Israel and therefore unable to provoke their hearts to jealousy (Rom 11). Moreover, you are wrong again, it is not illegal to preach the gospel in Israel. It is only illegal to offer material benefits to induce a change of religion. By the way, I can't help but wonder how often you preach to your Muslim neighbors. You are apparently so committed to your kind of evangelism that every Muslim in the Holy land must have heard from you by now that they are deceived and lost. Lastly, you are the one who keeps bringing up politics, not me. It seems you just can't get it out of your mind. Funny that you would instruct me on how to establish brotherly relationships when you are obviously unwilling yourself to have one, at least in the biblical sense. So God bless you anyway, Khaleel. Maybe one day we will meet in the sweet bye and bye and have a good laugh.

A secret - by Safa at 2007-10-23 20:44:53

Satan has really covered your eyes from seeing the truth and that is that you are of no witness whatsoever, neither to Jews nor to Arabs. For Jews, you are the naive Americans or Dutch that for some strange reason give them money and hug them when you should tell them the truth in love. You also do not share about Jesus (as part of a deal with Israel) therefore they see you as having no real convictions. You favor the Jews and get them political support and money and ask for hard-line attitudes therefore you make it harder to reach a settlement in this troubled land. For that-most Jews see you as ill minded that your money and support are welcome but neither you or "your" Jesus are respected in their eyes as a result of your attitude.

Arabs just hate your guts. Your Evangelical friends are also despised because of your attitude. Read Steven Sizen, Gary Burge and Collin Chapman books to see the true interpretation of the passages that you quote.

Secret exposed - by Jim at 2007-10-24 13:11:47

This is my final reply to Safa. Earlier I wrote "If there is really hatred manifesting in this discussion, let us see where it is residing." Your summation that "Arabs just hate your guts" says it all. I suppose this includes you but it certainly does not include many Arab friends that I have, whether or not we agree on everything. A true Christian should be able to meet in the spirit of Christ, recognizing that we all have blind spots. But you prefer the spirit of accusation, certain that you see the secrets of all. May the Lord heal your bitterness of heart. Regarding the respected authors you mention, I have read them all and spent some hours with two of them on different occasions, despite our disagreements. You can think they have all the answers if you want to. This way your bitterness won't get challenged. The Lord bless you anyway, Safa! And may He be glorified through your life!

hatred and Narkis - by safa at 2007-10-25 08:21:56

1. Arabs really hate you and you are a stumbling stone for a Billion Muslims . You prevent them from seeing Jesus in eyes of sympathy because of your blind support of the oppressive Jewish state. I personally do not hate you but really anguish because of your deeds and insensitive and misled unbiblical actions.

2. I reckon you met the mentioned writers after trying to disturb them by shouting in their meeting. I witnessed one of them when a rep. of the so called international Christian embassy did that.

3. Your Arab "friends" want your money and financial support and this connection to you just hurts their testimony.

4. I don't think any face to face meeting will change anything as you are fixed on just "loving" Israel.

5. Its interesting that Narkis street Baptist church was burnt and you did not find it suitable to even report that on your web site.

May God have mercy on you in the judgment day.

THANK YOU SAFA- by Khaleel at 2007-11-01 17:25:14

You just wrote what is on my heart. I believe that these "extra" Zionist are worse than anyone who works against the rights of the Palestinian people. As a Palestinian Christian I call upon all believers in the Holy Land "Palestine/Israel" to write our own theology and refute all the evil teachings and propaganda of the so called "Christian Embassy". I think they are mercenaries who are here to justify all the evil deeds of the State of Israel and promote a policy of war, hatred, and death
1.stop lying!
 Marzuq, November 26, 2007 18:18
2.marzuq (reply to 1)
 Ishai, November 26, 2007 23:44
3.no... (reply to 2)
 Marzuq, November 27, 2007 16:31
4.Sorry (reply to 3)
 Ishai, November 30, 2007 2:46
5.The problem (reply to 4)
 Ishai, December 3, 2007 23:19
6.Amen Brother (reply to 5)
 aravi masihi, December 5, 2007 1:53
7.why do you call yourself aravi?use arabosh.... (reply to 6)
 Jakie Dayomi, December 5, 2007 3:18
8.why both Jim and arabi Masihi have nothing to answer?This says something!
 Assad hamada, November 19, 2007 23:41
9.it says nothing (reply to 8)
 arabi masihi, November 21, 2007 4:53
10.shameful attitude (reply to 9)
 Palestinian believer, November 21, 2007 14:03
11.thanks cause i'm silly (reply to 10)
 arabi masihi, November 22, 2007 3:38
12.Money?!!!! (reply to 11)
 Palestinian believer, November 22, 2007 23:21
13.how come you r Palestinian and u live in nazareth (reply to 12)
 , November 23, 2007 14:10
14.Whats the problem? (reply to 13)
 Palestinian Christian, November 23, 2007 15:01
15.to Palestinian Christian (reply to 14)
 Bible believing Christian, November 23, 2007 18:52
16.Israel (reply to 15)
 palestinian Christian, November 24, 2007 0:21
17.to Palestinian Christian (reply to 16)
 Bible believing Christian, November 24, 2007 14:08
18.to Bible Believing (reply to 17)
 Palestinian Christian, November 24, 2007 23:55
19.PC (reply to 18)
 Bible believer, November 25, 2007 19:56
20.Despite the eschatology (reply to 19)
 Palestinian Christian, November 27, 2007 19:47
21.PC (reply to 20)
 bible believer, November 30, 2007 3:44
22.Justice (reply to 21)
 palestinaian Christian, November 30, 2007 15:31
23.Truth (reply to 22)
 BB, December 6, 2007 21:38
24.Still... (reply to 23)
 palestinaian Christian, December 7, 2007 2:44
25.Still again (reply to 24)
 Bible believer, December 7, 2007 16:09
26.Blessed are the peacemakers (reply to 25)
 Sherri Munnerlyn, January 8, 2008 12:36
27.it was called belad alsham (reply to 26)
 arabi masihi, November 23, 2007 20:15
28.you really proved that you are silly with the last comment (reply to 27)
 calculas, November 22, 2007 23:27
29.dear brother Jim please forgive Safa and khaleel they r not a real believers
 arab believer, November 9, 2007 14:21
30.Are you God? Mr. Arab believer (reply to 29)
 Khaleel, November 11, 2007 23:02
31.it seems you are sad because...... (reply to 30)
 arabi masehi , November 14, 2007 2:44
32.Arabi Masihi or Israeli Zionist?!!! (reply to 31)
 Khaleel, November 14, 2007 14:34
33.from what you write i can see you r not born again (reply to 32)
 arabi masiehi, November 15, 2007 3:22
34.Judgmental (reply to 33)
 Palestinian Christian, November 15, 2007 15:01
35.my purpose is to tell arabs about christ not thier rights (reply to 34)
 arabi masiehi , November 16, 2007 3:00
36.to arabi masiehi (reply to 35)
 Palestinian believer, November 16, 2007 19:47
37.you know why arab muslims don't come 2 christ (reply to 36)
 arabi masehi, November 16, 2007 21:41
38.agree to part (reply to 37)
 Palestinian Christian, November 17, 2007 0:15
39.arab?believer? (reply to 38)
 Safa, November 12, 2007 1:52
40.i know one thing Jesus above every thing. (reply to 39)
 arabi masehi , November 14, 2007 2:49
41.God is not a real state agent. Wake up man (reply to 40)
 Khaleel, November 14, 2007 14:42
42.Propoganda (reply to 41)
 palestinaian Christian, November 14, 2007 16:55
43.error of palestinian christian (reply to 42)
 Bible believing Christian, November 20, 2007 2:03